Posted: 8:59 am Wednesday, July 2nd, 2014

On new gun law’s first day, a draw-down in Valdosta 

By Jim Galloway

The Valdosta Daily Times reports today that, on the first day of Georgia’s new law expanding the right to carry, we had a pair of gun-toting firearm enthusiasts – one of whom wasn’t sure that the fellow in front of him was a good guy with a gun:

At approximately 3 p.m. Tuesday, police responded to a call regarding a customer dispute at the Enmark on the corner of Park Avenue and North Lee Street.

A man carrying a holstered firearm entered the store to make a purchase. Another customer, also with a holstered firearm, approached him and demanded to see his identification and firearms license, according to the Valdosta Police Department report.

The customer making demands for ID pulled his firearm from its holster but never pointed it at the other customer, who said he was not obligated to show any permits or identification.

He demanded the man’s ID again. Undeterred by the drawn gun, the man paid for his items, left the store and called for police.

Authorities arrested Ronald Williams, 62, on a charge of disorderly conduct, related to the pulling of a weapon inside of the store, according to the VPD. Police confiscated Williams’ weapon and took him to the Lowndes County Jail.

Seems as if the fellow forgot that, under Georgia’s new gun law, no one can demand to see another’s carry permit without cause. Not even police.

Apparently, the police report doesn’t indicate whether the store clerk required a change of underwear afterwards.

457 comments
keeyonisays
keeyonisays

Hmm, lets put this law to the test. Have a muslim man or better yet a group of muslim men open carry and see what the aftermath comes about.

BrianClyne
BrianClyne

As usual, Jim's insight is second to none.  

gregg56
gregg56

Jim,  You really need to get the law right.  The law specifically says " A person carrying a weapon shall not be subject to detention for the sole purpose of investigating whether such a person has a weapons carry license".

Your statement of "Seems as if the fellow forgot that, under Georgia’s new gun law, no one can demand to see another’s carry permit without cause. Not even police." does not say the same thing.

Reading the Valdosta Daily Times report, even the Police Chief got it wrong.  Nowhere in any report I have been able to find did the guy demanding to see the license do ANYTHING to try and detain the man for the sole purpose of checking his license.  On the flip side, however, the guy demanding to see the license did not appear to have any real authority to be making such a demand.


Your classification of "we had a pair of gun-toting firearm enthusiasts" may not be as accurate as you would like it to be.  For instance, you seem to be implying that the mere act of carrying a gun makes one a "gun enthusiast".  By that same logic, someone driving a car would be an automotive enthusiast, even though that person may only be using the car as transportation to and from work.


Interesting thing is that given the circumstances listed in all the reports I have been able to find and read, that is nothing in the law that took effect on July 1 that changed ANYTHING in the case cited!  Both men were perfectly within their rights, provided both are properly licensed, to be openly carrying at the location where the altercation happened.  Should the owner of that establishment feel the need, as a private property owner, he can declare his establishment to be a "gun free zone" and take his chances with the criminal element.


Mitchellbrooks
Mitchellbrooks

Dang folks, there is so much misinformation and ignorance (Yes, that is the correct word) about this legislation, and how it impacted weapons carry code in GA being posted here and elsewhere that it is downright stupid.  

Please, read the bill. 

tomkat1111
tomkat1111

Williams obviously has some mental health issues.

Armydawg
Armydawg

This doesnt even make sense.  Never heard of this happening before.

Quackmeyer
Quackmeyer

9Awesomeb......I believe I have finally emptied my clip on this topic.  It has been a great exercise for me and others, alike.  One parting shot.  9, if you called someone ignorant to their face, do you honestly believe that their first thought would be that you were referring to the dictionary definition and not some type of insult?  Just saying!

Savdon
Savdon

I think we all knew this was going to happen.

Quackmeyer
Quackmeyer

9Awesomeb........you are right and I admitted to not having the interest in the bill that maybe I should have, thus, on that point I'm ignorant of all the facts.  I tried to point out what safe guards should be provided for both a permit and open carry.  Though legal in Georgia, open carry is not a very smart thing to do, ever.  Don't think we should call it a 'bill' any longer.  As I understand it, it is now a Georgia statute.

Quackmeyer
Quackmeyer

9Awesomeb.....since my concealed permit is not Georgia issued, I must admit, I had little interest in this bill.  My concealed permit is valid in Georgia and I have tried over the past 2 days to make, what I thought might be good points about concealed and open carry.  If mine and many other commenters bothers you so much, try the food section.  Calling us ignorant does show a lack of class on your part, imho.

9Awesomeb
9Awesomeb

What does the new law have to do with this incident? The new law pertains to CONCEALED weapons, not openly carried weapons. We have always been able to carry guns openly (in a holster) in Georgia. This incident could have happened a week ago or 10 years ago. Why are people so ignorant? Why not read the freaking law before you write an article or make a comment?

Quackmeyer
Quackmeyer

BigJohn767....any person who desires a concealed permit would probably never open carry.  They know they are just asking for trouble.  Many states that offer concealed permits do not allow open carry.  I was not clear if you were only referring to Georgia or all states that offer concealed permits.

rodertrudis
rodertrudis

More time and effort wasted from our lives because of guns.

rodertrudis
rodertrudis

Is there a list where a voter can see exactly which state senators voted for this law?

BigJohn767
BigJohn767

I have a concealed carry license. I do not open carry and think that anyone who does (other than the police) is just looking for confrontations. I carry my weapon almost everywhere I go and no one has ever noticed because it's CONCEALED. 

This new law has nothing to do with the story. A concealed carry permit holder has ALWAYS had the right, if they choose, to open carry. 

Quackmeyer
Quackmeyer

To have a bill passed like this without requiring your family doctor signing off on your mental stability is very shortsighted,  No Dr, no training, no quals , no continued education and additional quals, well that was well thought out now wasn't it.

DecaturDramaQueen
DecaturDramaQueen

These Open Carry guys think only white people can carry military-type assault weapons into stores, bars, restaurants, town halls, etc. Things will change when black people discover that the law applied to them, too. Large groups of black men with military assault rifles may just start visiting the stores, bars, restaurants, town halls in areas where white Georgia lawmakers live work and shop. They won't be able ask for permits and police can't ask them either. This law doesn't apply only to those whose skin in white. That day is coming. This kind of insanity will only stop when businesses in Georgia start closing because shoppers and diners are scared away by these men. This Georgia open carry law is especially cruel for people who have suffered trauma, even if it didn't involve a gun. This is why Target says "no" to guns in their store--they may have already noticed people leaving when these men with large weapons show up. When Walmart starts losing customers who are too frightened to enter their stores because their last visit they saw roving men with large weapons and people are too scared to go to movies, restaurants and bars in Georgia because they don't know the mental health of the guy sitting next to them with a military-grade weapon at his side. We do know a person's mental health status who openly carries something like that--and that's what really scares us.

HypnotistMonkey
HypnotistMonkey

@Mitchellbrooks,



I’m sure you understand that the misrepresentation was intentional and calculated lies. Gun prohibitionist groups from afar descended upon Georgia in yet another attempt to halt, prohibit and deny any pro-gun or restoration of once held gun rights. They are becoming quite desperate as most states refuse them, save a small hand full.


The mindless lemmings that greedily drink from the trough they fill are if anything quite noisy. And most importantly they will not read nor educate themselves if it rubs against the grain of their indoctrination. To do so would negatively impact their self-image and that will not be tolerated. “I can’t be wrong”-“I will not be wrong”-ignore all else!!!!


No, they will double down on failure, they will embrace junk science and declare it “research” all the while calling it common sense, each and every time they can until some actually believe the tripe they are selling.


However, they are a minority and losing ground in nearly every state, save a few blue states that the party’s political plank incorporates the slow dismantling of the second amendment. It’s for public safety! So obey! Ignore the honest real “common sense” and embrace the fail.


No sir they will not read nor comprehend HB 60/875. It’s against their nature. Save your bandwidth.

Mitchellbrooks
Mitchellbrooks

@tomkat1111 

I would like to know what he was thinking.  Is he one of the anti-firearm folks who have been posting for the past couple of months about how "they were going to get a gun and draw down and stand their ground" on the first person they saw carrying?  I've seen a lot of those type posts in recent weeks.   Almost sounds like it. The other possibility is  that his actions were very indicative of an ex or retired law enforcement officer. one of those "I am the law, son" folks.

Jurisrachel
Jurisrachel

@Armydawg I'm surprised it hasn't, and I'm sure it will increasingly happen. Even before this, when the NRA was talking about "good guys with guns" being the obvious solution, I wondered what'd happen when there are multiple "good guys with guns," but no one can really be sure _who_ is the "good guy."

9Awesomeb
9Awesomeb

@Quackmeyer Do you even know what ignorant means? It means "not having knowledge." If you think this bill applies to open carry, you are ignorant about the law. It is not bad to be ignorant. Everyone is ignorant about many subjects. But, those who are making statements of fact, despite their ignorance to this bill, really make people look stupid. Most people don't understand that one could ALWAYS carry a gun openly in most public places. A concealed weapon permit gives someone the right to conceal that weapon. Ignorant people on here think that this bill gives people the right to brandish a gun on their hip (which, while legal, is not something I would do). This bill has nothing to do with open carry. I'm just asking that people become educated on a subject before they make statements of fact. It's one thing to be ignorant, but to exploit that ignorance to wrongly influence others' thoughts is simply not useful.

gregg56
gregg56

@9Awesomeb It would seem by your comments that you are in need of seriously following the "free advice" you are dishing out to so many other people in such a condescending fashion!  The new LAWS pertain to ALL carry of weapons outside your personal property.

Mitchellbrooks
Mitchellbrooks

@9Awesomeb 

This is not true either.  In GA there is no distinction between open and/or concealed carry.  GA law has for sometime now allowed both completely at the discretion of the carrier. This law was about carry, period, open or concealed. 

Mitchellbrooks
Mitchellbrooks

@Quackmeyer 

There is no such thing as a concealed permit in GA.  It is simply a GWCL (Georgia Weapons Carry License) and it allows carry concealed or openly. completely at the carrier's discretion. 

I've never seen so many so misinformed about a law. 

Ralph-43
Ralph-43

@BigJohn767  You sound responsible.  We just need to upgrade the permit review - obviously, some are being handed permits (Isla Vista, Newtown) who are psychotic and should not have them.  These two old boys in the report are clearly dangerous to themselves and others.  If they have permits, they should be rescinded, substantial fines collected for the tax base, and a data base created to monitor their future confrontations (there will be some).

Ralph-43
Ralph-43

@Quackmeyer  Right on. Prior behavior predicts the likelihood of committing gun violence.Federal law prohibits felons and those convicted of misdemeanor domestic violence from possession of a firearm, but it allows those convicted of assault and battery, brandishing a weapon, and those making open threats of violence (New York Times, 2/24/2013).That must be corrected.Federal law prohibits purchase by an abuser of controlled substances but allows alcohol abusers to purchase guns.That must be corrected.  I consider anyone openly carrying a firearm in a commercial or public area to be "brandishing a weapon and making an open threat of violence".

gregg56
gregg56

@DecaturDramaQueen Well, your moniker certainly fits.  "military-grade weapon", really, just what is THAT?  Military weapons are full auto, and without the proper FEDERAL permits and licenses, they are illegal.  Notice that the Georgia Law cannot and does not cover asking for the FEDERAL paperwork--which is required to be with you at all times and available for inspection--for the "military-grade" weapons.


My small, and easily concealable weapons fire big bullets.  What is your point about big guns?

Again, being the drama queen your moniker purports,  although the law clearly states that you may not be detained for the SOLE purpose of checking your WCL status, you CAN be detained for other reasons and as the good officer has cause now, he is no longer in violation of the law to request you license.

WW5
WW5

all the busness owners have to do is post a "no gns allowed" sign, if they o choose.

Ralph-43
Ralph-43

@DecaturDramaQueen  This is going to be great.  Crawling through the grass.  Firing over head.  Tossing grenades.  Just like Nam, man.  Crank up the tunes.  We're all going to die.

WW5
WW5

you dont need a permit for a long gun or a holstered open carry handgun

Jurisrachel
Jurisrachel

@HypnotistMonkey @Mitchellbrooks I will try to read that as sarcasm ... otherwise the doublespeak becomes too painful. :/

But, because I'm apparently a glutton for punishment, I'm curious: by embracing "junk science," are you by chance referring to climate change?

gregg56
gregg56

@9Awesomeb In Georgia it is NOT legal to carry a weapon outside your personal property (home and associated personal property, personal vehicle(s), personal boat(s)) without a WCL, or a license from a state where Georgia has reciprocity.  That means open or concealed.

It would appear that you are not as up to date on the Georgia weapons carry law as you may think.

HighlyAmused
HighlyAmused

@gregg56 @9Awesomeb 

Well, I applied for a CCW when I was in the Army, and on leave back home. I was turned down because I was "not residing" in the county (being stationed overseas at the time). Both the Sheriff and the city police chief assured me that open carry, in a hip holster, was completely legal, provided I did not carry in a number of places (govt. buildings, schools, bars, etc). This was in 1981.

So- I can well understand why many hold 9's opinion.

mtman100
mtman100

@Ralph-43 @BigJohn767 Actually, the two you mentioned didn't have carry permits. I agree, much more needs to be done to keep guns from the hands of the truly mentally ill along with enforcing the laws that are already on the books.  As a long term responsible carry permit holder,  I see so much misinformation and flat out lies out there to promote the anti-gun agenda.  None of the  proposed laws would have prevented the vast majority of the highly publicized mass shooting.  Also, almost nothing is mentioned about the many lives and crimes that are prevented by law abiding citizens with lawful guns. Many years ago,  having a gun certainly prevented me from being mugged and possibly saved my life when going to my car after dark while working late one night.  I didn't have to use it.  Just by indicating that I was "carrying," was enough to deter the 3 young thugs that had been stalking me.

HighlyAmused
HighlyAmused

@Ralph-43 @Quackmeyer 

And I consider you to be a moron.

Are you by any chance another paid shill for Bloomberg?

I don't approve of open carry for the simple reason it draws unfavorable attention. 

Mitchellbrooks
Mitchellbrooks

@Ralph-43  

I consider anyone openly carrying a firearm in a commercial or public area to be "brandishing a weapon and making an open threat of violence".

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You would be wrong.  GA has no law against brandishing a weapon. 
 It is a perfectly legal activity.

gregg56
gregg56

@WW5 Actually, in Georgia, the signs carry no force of law.  They can, however, request you to leave and you are obliged to do so immediately.

Mitchellbrooks
Mitchellbrooks

@WW5 

This is not true either.  Signs carry no weight of law with regards to carry on private property in GA.  What private property owners must to do prevent carry on their property is to ask the carrier to leave or else face trespassing charges. 

 

gregg56
gregg56

@WW5 Actually for ALL handgun carry, in Georgia, you need a WCL should you attempt to carry outside your personal property.

Ralph-43
Ralph-43

@mtman100 Point of order.  Those 3 young thugs are now well-armed, thanks to straw purchases, gun shows, and poorly secured weapons in burglarized homes.  In the future they will also assume you are armed and put a bullet in your knee before you even see them.  They have stolen as many cell phones as they need. Now they plan to arm the rest of the gang thanks to the N.R.A., a stupid legislature, a moronic governor, and (as noted above and below) an inattentive and poorly educated electorate.  As the data shows one is much more likely to be murdered while carrying a gun than if one is unarmed (Univ Penn LDI Issue Brief 2003;8(8), 1-4; Ann Int Med, Jan, 2014).  In the future, mtman, you will be donating your weapon to the gun culture - maybe they will give you a prize.

gregg56
gregg56

@Mitchellbrooks @Ralph-43 Let me start with Ralph-43.  Looking through all of the Georgia code, I cannot find a section that defines "brandishing a weapon".


Mitchellbrooks, good call on there being no "brandishing" law--or even a definition--in the state of Georgia.

Ralph-43
Ralph-43

@Mitchellbrooks  The point being - it should not be (read my post again).  One person brandishing a weapon leads to a second and, as noted in the Valdosta report of the two old codgers flipping guns around, somebody may eventually get shot.  Federal law is important here and will need to be enforced by federal agencies.  The neo-Confederates still have too much influence in the Georgia legislature to think maturely and in a 21st century mode.

HighlyAmused
HighlyAmused

@Ralph-43 @mtman100 

And that's a marvelous fairy tale- supported by zero facts.

And please cease quoting reports that are based upon discredited studies. If one confines the study to those who die by gunfire- while ignoring the fact that an large number of those are criminals engaged in criminal acts- you can make up anything you want.

Or try quoting the DOJ studies- going back for at least a decade- that find that those who resist criminal attacks, most particularly those who do so with a firearm, are injured at far lesser rate than those who do not resist.

HighlyAmused
HighlyAmused

@Ralph-43 @Mitchellbrooks 

The only person "flipping guns around" was Mr. Williams- who was arrested for disorderly conduct. Apparently, brandishing a firearm violates that  particular code section (and based upon memory, it has always been so in Georgia), so while having a code section that specifically addresses such conduct might indeed be a good idea (and one I would support), the facts of this case argue against either of your positions- that is an legal activity, and that the mere act of open carry constitutes such an offense.